Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/mac/TEXT/SPACEDIG/V13_7/V13_779.TXT

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Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #779

SPACE Digest                                     Volume 13 : Issue 779

Today's Topics:
     Re: On the Non-Anticipation of Automated Spacecraft
             Re: Mining El Dorado
      Re: Excavating (minig) gold in the space by NASA.
           Jonathan's Space Report, Jun 17
               Asteroid Mining
             Re: Access to Space
  To fermat!r (Rich Schroeppel), failed message, Virgo SuperCluster
             Re: Hermes (was Re: (none))
      Re: Excavating (minig) gold in the space by NASA.

Administrivia:

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 91 12:56:04 GMT
From: agate!bionet!uwm.edu!rpi!usc!hela![e-mail]  (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: On the Non-Anticipation of Automated Spacecraft

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Loren Petrich) writes:

>The only maintenance problem that
>remains for most satellites is the question of maneuvering propellant.

That is because they use ultra-reliable (and ultra-expensive) parts and
tests. With a reasonable space based infrastructure repair will be a
very practical proposition. This will mean that satellites can use less
reliable parts which will reduce costs. From there it will be a small step
to performing satellite integration in orbit which will greatly simplify
designs and cut costs even more. None of this is possible now (or in the
forseeable future) without humans on site.

>Even the spacecraft
>that carry astronauts are heavily automated; for most of the flight in
>every mission I know of, the astronauts are simply passengers.

To an almost equal extent the same could be said of a modern airliner.
As one who has worked in cockpit automation I woldn't want to see
airline pilots eliminated.

>I get the impression that astronauts' control over the motion of a
>spacecraft has consisted mostly of reorienting it and small delta-vee
>maneuvers like docking; and even those sorts of maneuvers are fed
>through a control system.

The actuation of any control goes through a control system. However
I doubt very much if any of these systems have the ability to override
the pilot.

>This level of automation has been necessary
>because one needs very precise delta-vees and directions to get to
>where one wants to go, though fortunately, the necessary maneuvers are
>rather straightforward to work out by computer.

This is not entirely true. During Gemini the crews where doing major
orbital changes manually. The computers did tell them some of the
actions needed but there was also some 'seat of the pants' flying.
A major goal of Gemini was to demonstrate the ability to do orbital
redndevous with only some computer help.

  Allen
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Allen W. Sherzer |   DETROIT: Where the weak are killed and eaten.         |
|   [e-mail]   |                                                         |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 91 15:05:59 GMT
From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.arc.nasa.gov!skipper![e-mail]  (Mary Shafer)
Subject: Re: Mining El Dorado


Is your subject line prophetic?  The Spanish never found El Dorado.
They looked and they died looking, but they never found it because
it didn't exist.

It's important, when you hear stories of the glittering treasures
of a New World, to be sure that the stories are accurate.  It appears
that the Seven Cities of Cibola, filled with gold and silver and
gems for the taking, were actually the pueblos and cliff houses of
our desert southwest, with the only significant mineral content being
the silica in the adobe that they were made from.
--
Mary Shafer  [e-mail]  ames!skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov!shafer
           NASA Ames Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
                     Of course I don't speak for NASA
            "Turn to kill, not to engage."  CDR Willie Driscoll

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 91 15:43:10 GMT
From: sgi!shinobu!odin!sgihub!zola!horus.esd.sgi.com![e-mail]  (Thant Tessman)
Subject: Re: Excavating (minig) gold in the space by NASA.

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Arto Wikla) writes:

> Remember what happened to the economy of Spain after
> they had found the gold of America!
> (There was a gold-inflation, which ruined the economy and finally
> was the end of super-power Spain.)

If I remember correctly, it wasn't the gold alone that destroyed their
economy, it was the fact that they didn't allow any gold to be exported.

> Arto Wikla, Helsinki, Finland

thant

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 91 21:14:28 GMT
From: agate!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!freedom!xanth![e-mail]  (Jonathan McDowell)
Subject: Jonathan's Space Report, Jun 17


Jonathan's Space Report

Jun 20 1991 (no.77)
----------------------------------------------------

Kosmos-2150 was launched on Jun 11 by Kosmos R-14 from
Plesetsk. It is a military communications
satellite in low orbit.

The long duration spy satellite Kosmos-2113 reentered on Jun 11
after 172 days in orbit. This is a bit surprising as recent members
of its class had showed lives about 8 months long, so I was expecting
it to stay in orbit until August.

Anatoliy Artsebarksiy and Sergey Krikalyov continue in orbit
aboard the Mir/Kvant/Kvant-2/Kristall/Soyuz TM-12/Progress M-8 complex.

___________________________________
|Current STS status:              |
|Orbiters                         |
|                                 |
|OV-102 Columbia     Kelly AFB,TX |
|OV-103 Discovery       OPF Bay 1 |
|OV-104 Atlantis        VAB Bay 1 |
|OV-105 Endeavour       VAB Bay 2 |
|                                 |
|ML/ET/SRB stacks                 |
|                                 |
|ML1/STS-43/ET/OV-104   VAB Bay 1 |
|ML2                              |
|ML3                    VAB Bay 3 |
-----------------------------------

New objects in orbit 1991 May

May 1    1975-52D to DM?    Delta 111 debris, 105 objects    1100x1400x99.8    Delta 111 explosion, orbit is typical
May 1    1991-31B    IBSS-SPAS 2 satellite        245x256x57.0    Retrieved May 2 by OV-103 Discovery
May 2    1991-31D    USAF CRO-C satellite        243x261x57.0    Reentered May 14
May 2    1991-31E    USAF CRO-B satellite        241x262x57.0    Reentered May 12
May 3    1991-31F    USAF CRO-A satelllite        250x269x57.0    Reentered May 13
May 6    1991-31C    USA-70 satellite        252x267x57.0    Classified
May 12?    1990-104K to R    7 PVO radar targets        500x525x82.5    Deployed from Kosmos-2106
May 14    1991-032A    NOAA 12 satellite        812x829x98.7    NOAA weather satellite
May 14    1991-032B,C    NOAA 12 sensor covers?        816x824x98.7
May 16    1991-033G    Tsiklon 3 rocket        1415x1473x82.6
May 16    1991-033A    Kosmos-2143 satellite        1400x1416x82.6    VMF Gonets class comsat
May 16    1991-033B    Kosmos-2144 satellite        1412x1416x82.6    VMF Gonets class comsat
May 16    1991-033C    Kosmos-2145 satellite        1406x1416x82.6    VMF Gonets class comsat
May 16    1991-033D    Kosmos-2146 satellite        1394x1416x82.6    VMF Gonets class comsat
May 16    1991-033E    Kosmos-2147 satellite        1390x1416x82.6    VMF Gonets class comsat
May 16    1991-033F    Kosmos-2148 satellite        1383x1416x82.6    VMF Gonets class comsat
May 17    1990-104S to W    5 PVO radar targets        500x525x82.5    Deployed from Kosmos-2106
May 18    1991-034B    Blok-I rocket            191x208x51.6    Reentered May 19
May 18    1991-034A    Soyuz TM-12 spaceship        191x208x51.6    Docked with Mir complex May 19
May 21    1991-035B    Blok-I rocket            181x243x82.3    Reentered May 23
May 21    1991-035A    Resurs-F satellite        229x233x82.3    GUGK remote sensing sat
May 24    1991-036B    Blok-I rocket            164x342x67.1    Reentered May 27
May 24    1991-036A    Kosmos-2149 satellite        163x353x67.1    GRU imaging recon sat
May 24    1991-037B    Delta 205 rocket        400x2353x25.0
May 24    1991-037C    PAM-D rocket            400?x36000?x25?
May 24    1991-037A    GE3000 Aurora 2 satellite    35734x35846x0.1    GE Alascom comsat
May 26    1990-107    Soyuz TM-11 PAO            0x360x51.6    Reentered May 26
May 26    1990-107    Soyuz TM-11 BO            0x360x51.6    Reentered May 26
May 30    1991-038B    Blok-I rocket            185x218x51.6
May 30    1991-038A    Progress M-8 cargo ferry    185x218x51.6    Docked with Mir complex


10 years ago: 19 Jun 1981. The third Ariane launch places the Meteosat 2
weather satellite and the experimental Indian APPLE comsat in orbit.

20 years ago: 27 Jun 1971. The third attempt to launch the Soviet
N-1 lunar rocket ends in failure.


Copyright 1991 Jonathan McDowell. Information in this report is obtained
from public sources and does not reflect the official views of NASA.

 .-----------------------------------------------------------------------------.
 |  Jonathan McDowell                 |  phone : [phone]                 |
 |  Space Science Lab ES65            | uucp:                                  |
 |  NASA Marshall Space Flight Center | bitnet :                               |
 |  Huntsville AL 35812               |  inter : [e-mail]  |
 |  USA                               |   span : ssl::mcdowell                 |
 '-----------------------------------------------------------------------------'

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 91 15:57:16 GMT
From: beguine![e-mail]  (Bill Woodward)
Subject: Asteroid Mining


Since there has been a thread running through this newsgroup about
the value of gold and platinum that could be mined from an asteroid,
and how much it would be worth/how hard it would be to get, etc.
My question is this: Ignore the precious metal content of the asteroid.
How much nickel and iron is there in an "average" asteroid (one that
would be worth going after)?  How much money would that amount of
iron be worth?  How hard would it be to get, and do you care that much
if there are some other precious metals in it as impurities?  My point
is, wouldn't the asteroid be worth going after just for the iron/nickel
content?  A large amount of the industry in the world is based on iron
and iron alloys/refinements (steel).  So how much is 1 asteroid worth?
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 128.109.157.30

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 91 21:38:45 GMT
From: prism![e-mail]  (Matthew DeLuca)
Subject: Re: Access to Space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Matthew DeLuca) writes:

>>If you couldn't talk to Europe instantaneously, would the demand for
>>computers in Europe be less?

>Nobody in Europe would be able to buy a symmetric parallel processing
>computers.  They don't make them.  Sequent and our arch-competitor in
>the U.S. Pyramid do.  Wealth has been created.  Over many industries,

I don't see how wealth has been created in this case.  Wealth has certainly
been *transferred*, from European customers to Sequent, but it hasn't been
created.

Several posters have made extensive posts on this topic, and they've
boiled down (in my mind) to the point that communications satellites
facilitate the creation of wealth, primarily through more prompt and
accurate communications.  It still doesn't really stand up to the
definition of industry, though, but it is an improvement.  When something
in orbit directly creates wealth, come back with your examples.

>Anyway, judging from the rest of your post you are interested in
>personally attacking me, not in thinking about the issue or in
>contributing towards progress in space.  That's my lot in life for
>posting uncomfortable facts and opinions.  I may cringe at your
>insults, but it is the space program itself that suffers from the
>attitude you have exhibited.

My sole insult to you was to accuse you of having a hole in your head,
since you managed to twist my initial reply to you into a defense of
the manned space program, when I had absolutely no such intention.  I
further pointed out that this was becoming a bad habit of yours.  You're
not going to martyrize yourself by manfully suffering the abuse of people
who don't agree with you and don't like your low-road tactics, so you
might want to drop that tactic before you end up in yet more kill files
than you undoubtedly already are.

(Oh, my job is taxpayer (state level) supported.  Am I going to receive
a threat in the e-mail?)
--
Matthew DeLuca
Georgia Institute of Technology      "I'd hire the Dorsai, if I knew their
Office of Information Technology      P.O. box."  - Zebadiah Carter,
Internet: [e-mail]    _The Number of the Beast_

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 91 23:51:00 GMT
From: SUWATSON.STANFORD.EDU![e-mail]
Subject: To fermat!r (Rich Schroeppel), failed message, Virgo SuperCluster

I tried to send email but the return address of "[e-mail]" didn't
work for me and it bounced back. So I'm posting a copy of the message
now in the hopes it'll reach the right person (and it may also be of
interest to some of you futurists out there).

Date: 15 June 91, 00:51:09 PDT
From: REM      at SUWATSON
To:   r at fermat.UUCP

Hi. Are you the famous friend of Gosper? Fancy seeing you post in
sci.space (I only recently discovered that I have access to UseNet
newsgroups by manually TELNETting to NNTP servers).
On your topic: For many years I have proposed that our longterm goal as
a species should be to colonize the Virgo Supercluster (of which we are
a member, but I mean colonizing a major fraction of it including
virtually all of the central concentration).
After that, I don't know, I can't think that far ahead.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 91 00:35:34 GMT
From: hub.ucsb.edu!ucsbuxa![e-mail]  (Charles Frank Radley)
Subject: Re: Hermes (was Re: (none))

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Fraering Philip) writes:

>How did Hermes become overweight? (That seems to be the next
>logical question, right?)

>Phil Fraering
>[e-mail]
good question.   It has been overweight for a long time,
it had been hoped they would reduce wiehgt somehow, but it looks
like those attempts have failed.
   Hermes was redesigned after challenger to try to make it safer
and I believe part of the increase could be due to a crew
escape capsule

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 91 15:48:53 GMT
From: agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!pitt!nss![e-mail]  (Paul Blase)
Subject: Re: Excavating (minig) gold in the space by NASA.

to: [e-mail] (Gary Coffman)
 GC> [...conversation re applicability of meteoric gold to electrical
 GC> transmission, etc] Needless to say gold powerlines
 GC> would be impractical even if gold were free.

The main use for gold in electronics is in plating connectors and other
contacts: aluminum and copper tend to form high resistance oxides, and
otherwise just corrode. It's also rather useful as an optical coating
on lenses.

(BTW, do you know what the main use of silver is?  Film emulsion!)

--- via Silver Xpress V2.26 [NR]
--
Paul Blase - via FidoNet node 1:129/104
UUCP: ...!pitt!nss!Paul.Blase
INTERNET: [e-mail]

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End of SPACE Digest V13 #779
*******************